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Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:09:00 - [1] Originally by: PsychoBones Jr Just wanted to throw out there for the "Fit ECCM you noobs" crowd that this Falcon hit 75% of it's jams on my 101 sensor strength Curse If he was using 5 Amarr racials on you (a VERY unlikely fitting for the falcon), he would have 54% of chance of jamming you. If he had 2 gravimetric and 1 of each other race (much more common) he would have 24% or chance to jam you. With 5 multspecs he would have 38% of jamming you. So you either was VERY unlucky (a thing that could have happened to him as well), or you are lying about the 75%... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:38:00 - [2] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 14/01/2009 14:38:00 Originally by: PsychoBones Jr Actually it was originally just the Ishkur and Ares there, which is why I engaged. I knew about the Falcon being nearby, thus the fitting. I took Ares into armor before the Falcon decloaked and jammed me, enabling the Ares to warp off. The Lachy came in about a minute into the fight, and eventually the Ares warped back in. The Raven then jumped in and I burned towards the Falcon (which is why he was in range to do damage to me). He missed a jam cycle as I closed in, but due to damps from the Lachy I was unable to get a lock before the next jam cycle. Getting hit by the Raven's cruises I decided to burn away and try to get out of jam range (lol). The Ares and the Warrior 2s from the Ishkur where the only thing able to keep pace with me, but due to jamming, I was unable to do anything to break his tackle. Eventually the Warrior 2s wore me down and I died. So a gang of 5 people were able to hold you when you decided to disengage a fight you looked for. Seems perfect to me. You shouldn't be able to disengage a fight at will. And the lachesis alone could have dampened you to oblivion and deactivated your MWD thus pinning you down. Quote: So to answer your question, yes, I do blame the Falcon for that ship dying, in spite of my insane sensor strength. I kept the Fraps of the fight (2 and a half minutes-ish) for a few months but lost it when I reformatted my HD recently. How convenient, isn't it? But I am sure we will take your word for the recounting of the events. Originally by: Malcanis It has nothing to do with believing whether I got unlucky that one time. If it was just one time, we wouldn't have about several 5-10+ page threads regarding the overpoweredness of Falcons on the first 10 pages of this forum. There are 200K players in this game, probably around 10-20K come to these forums, especially when they are ****ed. If the chance of this happening was 1% per event that would make 200 disgruntled peoplesupposing each of the 20 k encountered a falcon only once. Accounting for multiple encounters it is not hard to predicted a few thousand disgruntled people that are too stupid to remember about the other 99% of the time their 101 str ship was NOT jammed.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2009.01.14 15:56:00 - [3] Originally by: PsychoBones Jr Regardless of whether a pre-QR nano-Curse should have been able to disengage from that fight or not, a pre-QR nano-Curse could disengage from that fight at will. The only reason I couldn't was because of the Falcon. Then it is great it was there, isn't it? I mean if you had a ship that could disengage at will it would be blatantly overpowered. Fortunatelly there are counters as the falcon on this case.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2009.01.14 18:27:00 - [4] Originally by: Cohkka But I guess a falcon should be able to do it? Now that makes sense... The day you find a solo Falcon let me know. Quote: Your logic is way off. If someone took precautions and carefully choose his fight he should be able to disengage when he meets a certain point (like killing off the scramblers). In a fight taking that long its not unusual when the attacker disengages as reinforcement arrives. This is just a perfect example of a Falcon destroying small scale/solo PvP. No amount of precautions should enable you to solo prevail against a 5 people gang or even escape from it after engaging. That said, if it was just the falcon he would have escape just fine. What got him was a combination of tacklers and the falcon, which is perfectly fair on my view.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:32:00 - [5] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 14/01/2009 20:34:00 Originally by: Cohkka Why? Because you're scared of what a capeable PvPer could do to you and your friends? Like I said in another post a lot of players don't want to work for their kills, they want it the easy way - removing risks at ALL costs. These people wouldn't even dare to undock years ago when their numbers weren't at least three fold of the enemy. Smart players can deal with multiple targets on their own, there are ways and means. As soon as a Falcon comes into the equation it's not even worth trying only a big portion of luck will help you. On the contrarie, my dear, I want to ADD risks. Engaging when you are in advantage while being always able to bail out when the situation change is a risk free endeavor. If you engage and things turn to be not what you expect them to be, bad luck for you, time to die. And please, it is only possible to deal with multiple opponents solo if they are complete idiots. A game shouldn't ever be balanced based on aberrant behavior born in stupidity. Quote: Pretty rubbish excuse for being untouchable, don't you think? First a Falcon is hardly untouchable. Look at any killboard of any big alliance and you will see hundreds of them dead. Second, as long as it is not able to engage alone it means that the opponent is a gang. So in the eventuality the falcon decides to run, it will leave its allies pined and probably dead, therefore incurring in losses for its side, which is the desirable result for anyone who decices to engage and is outplayed. Who cares if the falcon ran when the ships it was trying to help died? Quote: There is a biiiig gap between skilled PvPers and your ordinary gank bangers. Rarely you'll find a good solopilot up against equal players (just because there aren't that many), but yeah if he does he's toast, that's to be expected. Maybe the abscence of solo PvP caused a temporary loss of memory or something, but it's still very true. There is no such a thing of ubber skilled pvpers, sorry, there is just dellusional people who think too much of themselves. This game is hardly brain surgery or rocket science. Being good at it is as difficult as being a tic tac toe champion. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:45:00 - [6] Originally by: Amira Shadowsong ECM is overpowered. You have to real stupid to not understand that. Just to put it out there. If your inference is correct you would have a better case if you didn't understand that ECM is overpowered, Amira. Then you wouldbe able to show by example. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2009.01.14 21:10:00 - [7] Originally by: Amira Shadowsong There is a good reason why I trained recon 5 and all jamming skills to 4-5. There is also a good reason that thousands of new accounts are created to train the exact same thing in only a few months time. This is the real reason why ccp is not nerfing falcons because it gives them more money. Everyone has to get a falcon alt to be viable soon = ccp collects cash. You already need a second account to scout, open Cynos, etc. I don't see how exactly Falcons changed this. Quote: Sorry but you and your squad here are very naive. ECM, esp falcons, are very much overpowered and are so for a very good reason. Wich is, ccp likes to hoe for money instead of actually making this game enjoyable. ECM does what is meant to do. It is not overpowered in the slighest, unless the opponent lacks a brain, but then again anything would be overpowered against such unfortunate person. Thinking about it you have my sympathy, Lyria, you are an example of perseverance.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2009.01.14 21:14:00 - [8] Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Yes ECM does what it is meant to do. To bring in more money for CCP. I'm feel sorry for you that fails to realise this. As about everything they put in the game, unless CCP has turned into a philantropic institution and I missed the memo.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2009.01.14 21:20:00 - [9] Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Making the game alot worse for many just to squeeze and extra buck is not the same thing as not making money at all. You like in some sort of black and white world? You know many of us humans have evolved to something that uses greyscales and colors instead of digital black and white reasoning. In short, you are fail. If they make the game worse for most they will lose more money than win, so rest assured they won't do it. But if they make the game worse for some, like you, while making it better for most, they will be just fine, as is the case with ECM.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2009.01.14 21:32:00 - [10] Originally by: Amira Shadowsong You are forgetting the addiction. Your life as a ****** addict will always get worse but it doesn't mean you just quit if it gets too crappy. ECM is not annoying enough to make most people mass quit because of only that but it is enough overpowered for many to open another account and give ccp more money. That's why it works out. As said, it's not a black and white world like you like to portrait it. I see you are talking from experience. I won't dispuse your chemical preferences, but there are a myriad of failed MMORPGS in the game industry's recent history to dispute your idea that no matter what is done the player base will remain unchanged on the face of game breaking decisions. But that is not relevant here. What is relevant here is IF ECM is a deleterious feature to Eve. I and several people here dispute this concept. Your assertions based on this premise are therefore void.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:02:00 - [11] Originally by: SLIM 1) It's easy to counter, just use your own ecm! - Um, if the only counter to ecm is MOAR ecm, then that doesn't work. That's what happened to nano gangs, the only thing that could counter them easily was other nanos and rapiers, a specialized ship. We all know how that ended up (wts: snakes). You said well, IF the ONLY counter to ECM was ECM, that would be true. Fortunately that is not the case. Quote: 2) Get some friends and gang up noob! - Right, more blobbing. Excellent idea. Not everyone likes running in larger gangs. Some of us like to solo, and falcons get really old. Actually, if you go solo and find several opponents you must be prepared to lose. Falcons AND tacklers AND damage ships together (because, you know, falcons won't be able to do anything to you alone) are just one of the several horrible things that can happen to you. Quote: 3) ECM ships have no hp! - Who cares, if it gets shot by a sniper, it warps out. The range, especially post speed nerf, makes them virtually untouchable. Plus plates will protect you easily from eccm snipers. If it gets shoot by a sniper it dies. Quote: 4) Adapt or die! - Nice sentiment. If something is overpowered, rather than get it fixed, it's better to just use it. The game is definitely more fun that way Nanos made me want to quit they were so goddamn predictable and boring, just like falcons are getting. Actually it is the opposite. Falcons make fights LESS predictable, and that is a very good thing. Quote: ECCM for anything bar battleships and recons is fairly useless as a difference of 11 vs 20 str for a falcon is nothing whatsoever. Remember, the thing has 7 damn mids (6 if you sensor boost). What eve has still not managed to grasp is that the defense should always be stronger than the offense, because the defense works against CERTAIN ships, the offense always works (obviously, not well against a ship set to counter it, but it does still work). The only things not affected by ECM are interdictors/hics, moms/titans, and smartbombers. Pretty rare. ECCM is ONLY useful against ECM ships, see the difference now? You fail at math, ECCM is very effective for HACS and battlecruisers too, it is only ineffective for frigs, but then agains frigs are very vulnerable to all kinds of EW. Quote: ECM is also overpowered because it breaks the fight/flight balance. Remember how nanos could kill stuff AND run if there was trouble. Same thing with warp core stabbing clowns before that. Well ecm is the current flavor of this. It has got to be modified. Actually there was a guy in this VERY thread complaining that Falcons are bad because one of them prevented his nanocurse from getting away. Quote: There have been many excellent solutions proposed. My personal one would be to make size based ecm. Make falcons work good on cruisers and perhaps bcs. Make them suck less effective against bs. So 1/4 strength on frig sized ecm, 1/2 on cruiser ecm (like the falcon would carry), and keep the strength the same for the scorp and widow, so they can have a purpose again. Best solution of all: do nothing. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:23:00 - [12] Originally by: SLIM Um, back up your point with evidence please. How does ECM NOT break the fight/flight balance. Be specific. Also, how are falcon alts not predictable? I can pretty much guess how many falcons a gang has by how many mains it has. You are asking him to back her point when you did nothign to back yours? Look at the miror before crying ugly. But I will be kind and answer your question, even if it was not meant to me. ECM actually CAN be used to break commitment to a fight, but its capacity to accomplish that is limited. If can't permajam several ships, and if those ships are prepared for it, it can only jam one or two at most. On the other had ECM can prevent Neut ships like Curses or Pilgrims from doing exactly the same, or even Rapiers and Huggins. It is actually a very good counter to these ships capability of hit and run. Now about predictability. The existance of Falcon ALTS may be predictable, as is the existence of Cyno Alts. But then again that means nothing. Falcon, Rooks and Scorpions, on the other hand, add one more vulnerability to the ships involved in a fight and make the fight dependent not onlyon damage and tank but on EW superiority as well, thus making the outcome a lot LESS predictable.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:32:00 - [13] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 14/01/2009 23:32:14 Originally by: SLIM Nice try, but it's still the most EFFECTIVE counter, and therefore still broken. If someone talks about damp arazus at 200k, they are going to go sit in a goddamn corner. No it is not the most effective counter, I am sorry to inform you. Quote: Difference being vs two opponents non ecm there are ways and fits around this. Falcon + dmg dealer can handle more opponents than any other two man combo. False again. Falcon + dmg dealer is definitely not better than Curse + Damage dealer for example. Falcon + damage dealer can be tanked forever by some fittings for example. Additionally the damage dealer can be killed by non targetable weapons, and its tackle can be broken in several ways. Quote: No, try again. If it's aligned it will get out. And of course it's aligned, it will be when it's uncloaking. You said shot, as in receiving a volley from a full rack of 1400mm. Sorry, but that means dead falcon. Quote: Just because you say it doesn't make it so. Falcons are so goddamn predictable its sad. If I have 3 falcons I know I'll win my medium sized gang engagement. It goes both ways. Just because you said the opposite it does not make it truth either. If you have 3 falcons in addition to WHAT and against WHAT? If you are saying that in addition to anything and against anything, you are insane. Quote: You fail at fitting. Throw a backup array on a zealot and let me know how it goes for you. Throw an eccm on a muninn while you're at it. Remember, individual slots are more precious on smaller ships. You need to pvp more and post less. If you decide that you can't throw a slot for ECCM it certainly is not important enough for you, thus ECM must be severily UNDERPOWERED. See when there is a counter to something and people DON'T USE it, it means that this thing is not that dangerous at all OR it means the people in question are very very stupid. Quote: I hardly see how this helps your argument. Basically it proves falcons help to prevent people from disengaging as well, and not only help them to do so, which pretty much invalidades your argument. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:37:00 - [14] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 14/01/2009 23:37:19 Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Hahaha, ECM is stacking nerfed? Hahahaha, no it's not. Please go away. It is more stacking nerfed than anything else. Once a single one takes effect all others are rendered useless, they don't add anything. Now if each ECM that succeeded added + 20s of jam, THEN they wouldn't be.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2009.01.15 00:02:00 - [15] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 15/01/2009 00:03:13 Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Haha, no you're wrong. ECM has no stacking nerf. They are in several ways. If you consider the effectiveness of it the time it will keep you jammed, then they are by the nature of probabilities themselves, as Jonas pointed. The more ECMs you put in a target the less will be the additional average jam time you will get. Quote: Besides your example is moot. You dont just activate all your ecm modules on the target. You activate one and one and therefor you dont get overlapping successes. But I can see why you would think that when looking at the other non sense you have written here. My example was perfect, IF you have a LOT of targets you can do it. If you don't, oh well, you just got yourselfs a full rack of non useable ECMs the moment one of them hits. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2009.01.15 22:35:00 - [16] Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Uhm, no. 10 racials will easily jam a cruiser with 3xeccm. 10000000 damps cant damp a Frig with 3xSBs below 10km. Do you know why? BECAUSE ECM IS NOT STACKING NERFED. DO YOU UNDERSTAND. Time to show your unsurpassing ignorance A maller with 3 ECCM has an overload strength of 112 A Falcon with Amarr racials has a strength of 15.12 for each, with 2 rigs and 3 distortion amplifiers II So supposing many falcons with similar setups used the right racial jammers on you to a total of 10, your chances of being jammed would be: (1-((0.865)^10)) = 76.54% Meaning that the TEN RACIALS applied over you have a 23.46% chance of NOT JAMMING YOU! Now about sensor boosters, a 10 KM frig is pretty much useless, THAT USING 2 SB, which make it impossible for ALMOST ALL FRIGS. A malediction with 3 sensor boosters has NO MWD and no disruptor, for example... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2009.01.15 22:37:00 - [17] Originally by: Kurt Ambrose Tackled = jam and warp out and no i dont :) More accurately, Tackled = pray to jam before you are dead. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2009.01.16 00:07:00 - [18] Originally by: Amira Shadowsong 1. This has nothing to do with stacking penalty. Sure it has, the difference between 10 jammers and 9 jammers in this same scenario is of 4%, while the difference in effectivety between 1 jammer and 2 would be of 87%. Can you see the benefits decreasing as the number of jammers increase? ECMs have natural stack penalties. Those penalties may not be strong enough for YOUR tastes, but they DO exist. Quote: 2. The 3xSBs is just an example, dont be so anal. Your example was about 3 SB in a frigate. It is impossible to fit 3 SB in a frigate and in MOST CRUISERS, without completely gimping them. So what is exactly the point of your example? Do you want to show that if you totally gimp yourself, sensor dampeners can't gimp you much further? Well done! Quote: 3. 10km frigs are not useless. Did you get that memo about QR and web nerfs? You fail. 10 km lock frigs without ANYTHING BUT SB in their mids actually are COMPLETELY useless. Quote: Just admit that you were wrong. ECM DOES NOT HAVE A STACKING PENALTY. DO YOU UNDERSTAND OR DO I NEED TO SPELL IT OUT FOR YOU ONE MORE TIME? Read above for your continuing education.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2009.01.16 00:13:00 - [19] Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Originally by: Etho Demerzel 10 km lock frigs without ANYTHING BUT SB in their mids actually are COMPLETELY useless. That's not what you said. You said a 10km frig is useless. What I said is a 10 km frig using 3 SBs (I actually made a type and wrote 2). After all I had no motive at all to refer to any frig but the comedy one you proposed. If you didn't understand that is just one more thing you don't understand, no big deal as your collection is quite large.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2009.01.16 00:20:00 - [20] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 16/01/2009 00:25:36 Originally by: Amira Shadowsong The core point still holds if you fit one single sensor booster. Allthough I'm not surpised that you are not capable of understanding this. One single SB will help to certain degree against 1000 damps. It will boost your lock range by noticable amount. Sure and this degree would be...? Oh let me tell you, in our nice malediction example that is about 4.5 km. Niiiice target range!!!!! And bear in mind that dampeners are THE worst form of EW at the moment, god help you if you start comparing trackign disruptor effectiveness, where ONE tracking disruptor can't be countered by any number of tracking modules. Quote: One ECCM will not do you jack good against 1000 ECM. DO YOU UNDERSTAND? IS THIS DIFFICULT? It will. Actually the more ECM that are thrown at you the better an ECCM module gets. For 1000 ECMs Your chances of NOT BEING JAMMED improve around 10^32 times if you have an ECCM fitted.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2009.01.16 00:29:00 - [21] Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Originally by: Murina Its exactly what i do and have done for a very long time, a solo noob and carebear ganker like you could never understand high spec pvp and the naivety of your posting makes that obvious. No one is buying your "skill". Why? You don't have anything to show. Empty perpetual babble. Hey focus in the discussion, I want to see how many absurdities you still have in storage. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2009.01.16 00:45:00 - [22] snip - Mitnal
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2009.01.16 01:01:00 - [23] Originally by: Amira Shadowsong I don't lose. My kill stats are quite positive. Positive as in ganking a lot of people to get a good K/D ratio? When was the last time you won an even fight? Let me guess, you don't even remember it...

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